Miming is not street dance

[DocLock]

Got lots of respect for Shields....TONS...An incredible and amazing talent but never did I ever feel he was the reason why we do what we do.

Back in our day...this is what happened when you crossed mimes on street corners.... :D


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[idennisinfante]

hahahhah nice

[MikeyP]

miming is such a great medium.

Back when i was an AAAAAAACCCTOOORRRRR! and i went to an AAACCCTTTIIINNNGGGG competition at PSU one of the workshops they held was for miming. It was taught by one of marcelle marcelle's top students. The class was so amazing, how to tell a story with no words is such an incredible artform, and mocked so easily (see above post).

Marcelles' students' performance was so great it brought most the class to tears (not me, i'm too hard for that >=[ ) and the concept was something silly like grabbing the moon from the sky, playing with it, and then giving it back.

Might i also remind that most of storm's performance at All the way Live was mime.

But not streetdance? hmmm....i dunno about that one sal =]


i mean what is dancing? Interpritation of music, praise of music through movement? What is mime? telling a story through movement alone, sometimes a peice of music is the influence to that. and u seem mime's on the street soooo???? it can be?? Is miming on beat? not really, but neither is interpritive dance half the time.

Also lets not forget Shockalock and Mimelocking. but yall aint ready for that =]


i love playign devils advocate.

[idennisinfante]

AAAACTIINNNNNNGGG!!!!


http://home.earthlink.net/~mountfuturama/Calculon-2.jpg

[MikeyP]

AAAACTIINNNNNNGGG!!!!


http://home.earthlink.net/~mountfuturama/Calculon-2.jpg



I'm experiencing all the emotions an actor can play. ANNGERR...fear...sadness

[Inventfmc]

That's the thing, I personally would not call it dance per se. Because of the more solid base that it has in acting. I would more call it "street performing" or "street acting."

HOWEVER.

Mikey is right, because the limitations of dance are being pushed all over the world by artists today. Especially in contemporary dance (remember, modern is a period of dance starting from martha graham to about the 60's and has specific schools of techniques...), you have many instances in which the dance is done WITHOUT music (thus breaking the idea that music is a necessity for dance), and it is also done in a "pedestrian" manner. Meaning it's more and more everyday movements, simple, un-dance like.

Dance has always in some way shape or form portrayed something or told some sort of story. We as funkstylists and hiphop dancers lose sight of this because people in our dance have forgotten about that aspect. The showing of emotion (not just coming out hard in a circle... but have you ever popped or locked trying to show sadness????), following a plot line with your dance that other people can understand...


I choreographed a piece that had mixed hiphop styles that was about the idea of family today. It starts out with the happy ideal family, then an arugment between the parents (the wife trying to be an individual) so the dad leaves, and the mom struggles to raise the family while the dad feels remorse for leaving the fam, but his pride keeps him from going back.
It was the first thing i ever choreographed, but just the message and the plot line that people could follow the response I got from it was OVERWHELMING. People came up to me to tell me how much the loved it... then (since it was done through the dance department at my school and people in every dance class had to write a paper on the show) my director told me that literally EVERY paper, people chose to write about my piece because they could identify with it and it touched them in some way shape or form.


The point is... art is art. It's boundaries are being crossed all the time. Many of us would consider Graffiti to be art (painting) where as painters would not... but they are using the same basic medium, PAINT.

Doesn't miming deserve the same respect as an art? It's base medium is MOVEMENT just as the same with DANCING.



There you go MikeyP, my barely thought out response.

[MikeyP]

dope post invent.

I think the message is clear here. Miming deserves alot of respect, and also that it did have a huge influence on dancing.

also (and great point invent) lines are meant to be crossed and blurred.

[Funky Robotnick]

Sal, honestly I'm not sure what you're getting at, I know you know mime and street dance have been mixed for a while now. I was gonna hold off my response to this until after you replied, but 'eff it, here goes.

Poppers and street dancers have been borrowing from mime since the 70s, stuff like character, isolation, fix point, etc. etc. But I think the main lesson to be learned is in the idea of story telling. Can you make a performance (remember, the second you step into the circle all eyes are on you and your preforming) move cohesively from point a to point b (to point c, to point d)? Can you communicate VISUALLY to a group of people even simple concepts? Im not talking about putting together an entire show, but just being able to hold a concept for an entire round. Doing so creates its own language, and helps a dancer control the music and the crowd. It doesn't have to be mime, but a lot of foundation comes from mime.

I feel this is the yin to musicality's yang, and something that a lot of dancers have overlooked in their quest to "just dance." We've all heard dancers complain "o he's just tricks" or whatever, but sometimes "tricks" are more than that. Just dancing is cool, but when you add in story telling the dance takes on a whole new dimension.

So is mime street dance? No. However, street dance has incorporated a lot of mime into it, not to mention mime has taken from street dance as well (robot anyone?)

[ceech]

i totally respect this discussion and everyone's input.

here are my inputs.

Dancing : when the body's movement is in harmony with the music, the combination of the audio and visual inputs create the dance. Others may define dancing differently; however, that's is how I was taught and it seems to work for me.

Street Dance (dancing) : a style of dance, a form of dance that is not ballet, jazz, or tap. It's not ballroom, not lyrical... so what is it ? Honestly, I don't know. Some would probably argue that tapping is a street dance. Who here is an historian of tap. What I was taught about tap was that it originated on the sidewalks of Chicago. So when did tap become a non-street dance ? Who is the authority that defines what style is and what is not street dance ? I don't know.

Some would say street dance started in the street. i would probably argue, no one really dances on the street. You'll get run over by cars if you actually did dance on the street. At most, on the sidewalk or at the park. Unless, it's a block party when the traffic is stop then people can dance on the streets.

Miming : a really cool illusion, a great way to tell a story without words. True miming, does it use music ? hmmmmm... most old films that I see, the mimes don't use music. they are trying to tell a story with their body, almost like playing charade. however, do dancers use miming moves in their dance. absolutely. do dancers use other moves such as lindy hop, tap, african, robot ? absolutely. do dancers use moves from cartoon ? yes, so dancers use moves from movies like robotcop, sinbad, kung fu movies. yes yes yes. all the time. dancers are artists. creative.

what makes miming just miming ? and what makes miming part of a dance ? I believe is the audio and video combination is in harmony, then it's a dance. if there's no audio and video harmony, then it's not a dance.

feedbacks anyone ?

[DocLock]

Maaaannnnnn, you know what you guys???

I can't believe you're all missing the entire point.








EUROTRIP was a funny movie!

[MikeyP]

i totally respect this discussion and everyone's input.

here are my inputs.

Dancing : when the body's movement is in harmony with the music, the combination of the audio and visual inputs create the dance. Others may define dancing differently; however, that's is how I was taught and it seems to work for me.

Street Dance (dancing) : a style of dance, a form of dance that is not ballet, jazz, or tap. It's not ballroom, not lyrical... so what is it ? Honestly, I don't know. Some would probably argue that tapping is a street dance. Who here is an historian of tap. What I was taught about tap was that it originated on the sidewalks of Chicago. So when did tap become a non-street dance ? Who is the authority that defines what style is and what is not street dance ? I don't know.

Some would say street dance started in the street. i would probably argue, no one really dances on the street. You'll get run over by cars if you actually did dance on the street. At most, on the sidewalk or at the park. Unless, it's a block party when the traffic is stop then people can dance on the streets.

Miming : a really cool illusion, a great way to tell a story without words. True miming, does it use music ? hmmmmm... most old films that I see, the mimes don't use music. they are trying to tell a story with their body, almost like playing charade. however, do dancers use miming moves in their dance. absolutely. do dancers use other moves such as lindy hop, tap, african, robot ? absolutely. do dancers use moves from cartoon ? yes, so dancers use moves from movies like robotcop, sinbad, kung fu movies. yes yes yes. all the time. dancers are artists. creative.

what makes miming just miming ? and what makes miming part of a dance ? I believe is the audio and video combination is in harmony, then it's a dance. if there's no audio and video harmony, then it's not a dance.

feedbacks anyone ?

What i've heard from the history of Tap is that it originated in the early 1900's southern USA from slaves that used tap as a way to communicate to each other with no words. Like all artforms that are new and exciting it was brought up into the limelight. I believe that tap didn't start as a street dance, but became that.

You can probably pull tap's origins all the way back to African tribal dance if you try hard enough. But the same can be said with most dancing IMO. So i dont think that there is any form of dancing that really started in a street. Personally i dont like the term "street dance" because something about that term seems to cheapen the styles that alot of us devote our lifes to. think "Street Kids" what idea does that invoke in you? Not a positive one in my head at least.

And who defines what is street dance and what isn't? Promoters do? i have no idea either, its just how society moves.

now back to miming. Again, i dont do mime at all, but i like to play devils advocate >=]
And actually a thought just hit me, what is the difference between miming with influence and attention to the music playing, and interpretive dance? Both can loosely ride the beat, both follow a storyline with all the arcs that come with it, and both are deeply poetic and saying things with no words.

But i agree totally with this: if there is no music and there is no acknowledgement of the music's theme tempo beat feel etc, then no matter the art form it is not dancing.

and i thought i'd counter Sal with a clip of Marcel Marceau (most famous mime to ever live)'s interpretation of a tango encounter and many others.

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[DocLock]

Okay now that we know this was just a thread to post that funny clip (well I thought it was hilarious), I do have to say I appreciate the philosophical additions on here.

If you know me, then you KNOW, I have the greatest appreciation for dance that actually "means something." I also have appreciation and respect for so many other artforms.

Dancing to just move to music is very limited and can get pretty boring after awhile. it is LIMITING. Not a problem if all you're doing is getting down at a club or party.

You do NOT grow that way...your DANCE does not grow...when all it is is a bunch of basic steps.

But if you want more from it, you need to keep your minds open.

Funny how many of our own streetdance critics are quick to jump all over "TRICKS" because they are too influenced into believing that all you're supposed to do things only one way.

The origins of "TRICKS" just so happen to come from the concept of miming.

Heck, first things we learned was to do mime type of moves then eventually we discovered "THE BEAT."

So, nope...I am in no way knocking on mimes. True mimes know WTF they are doing. It's a little something called ART.

Me....I LOVE to watch dance pieces that have something more than just the movements. That STORM at All The Way Live example is a great one, MikeyP. Freaking had you absorbed into the character, didn't he?

Some others who do this with OUR dances are the likes of SALAH, and Kenichi Ebina (seen here).

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I'd love to see the piece you did, Invent.


Let me fill you in some west coast street performing facts though.

Back in the late 70's, the MIMES (jugglers, too) ruled the street corners at Fisherman's Wharf, Union Square, and anywhere they were allowed to. I even saw Shields and Yarnell live as a kid when they did Union Sq in the early 70's.

Well around the time I was into the scene (late 70's), we would, of course, dance at some corners in Fisherman's Wharf when after a couple of hours (or a good hundred bucks - we did good), the "MIMES" would have us chased off by the cops because we didn't have permits to do what we did.

They were basically jealous of the attention we had gotten. There were times we actually got into cutups with them to show people "who was better." Yes, that sounds stupid. And it was. But it happened, nonetheless.

So you can see why I can enjoy the humor in that clip. Reality can be a funny thing at times.



But can we possibly hate on something like this???


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They disabled embedding on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tiv9RDIY0ac


I'll do a separate thread on the "SHIELDS AGENDA."




...sooooo somebody.....reach out.....

grab MY moon, will ya?? :D:D:D

[Inventfmc]

Im gonna have to disagree that it needs music to be dancing. Ill get more into it when im not at work. Again the medium for us is movement. The medium for a painter is paint. He a painter chooses to create a work that is not on a canvas does that make it not painting? If you lock to jazz does that change your locking into jazz dancing?

[Jeremiah]

Okay now that we know this was just a thread to post that funny clip (well I thought it was hilarious), I do have to say I appreciate the philosophical additions on here.

If you know me, then you KNOW, I have the greatest appreciation for dance that actually "means something." I also have appreciation and respect for so many other artforms.

Dancing to just move to music is very limited and can get pretty boring after awhile. it is LIMITING. Not a problem if all you're doing is getting down at a club or party.

You do NOT grow that way...your DANCE does not grow...when all it is is a bunch of basic steps.

But if you want more from it, you need to keep your minds open.

Funny how many of our own streetdance critics are quick to jump all over "TRICKS" because they are too influenced into believing that all you're supposed to do things only one way.

The origins of "TRICKS" just so happen to come from the concept of miming.

Heck, first things we learned was to do mime type of moves then eventually we discovered "THE BEAT."

So, nope...I am in no way knocking on mimes. True mimes know WTF they are doing. It's a little something called ART.

Me....I LOVE to watch dance pieces that have something more than just the movements. That STORM at All The Way Live example is a great one, MikeyP. Freaking had you absorbed into the character, didn't he?

Some others who do this with OUR dances are the likes of SALAH, and Kenichi Ebina (seen here).

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I'd love to see the piece you did, Invent.


Let me fill you in some west coast street performing facts though.

Back in the late 70's, the MIMES (jugglers, too) ruled the street corners at Fisherman's Wharf, Union Square, and anywhere they were allowed to. I even saw Shields and Yarnell live as a kid when they did Union Sq in the early 70's.

Well around the time I was into the scene (late 70's), we would, of course, dance at some corners in Fisherman's Wharf when after a couple of hours (or a good hundred bucks - we did good), the "MIMES" would have us chased off by the cops because we didn't have permits to do what we did.

They were basically jealous of the attention we had gotten. There were times we actually got into cutups with them to show people "who was better." Yes, that sounds stupid. And it was. But it happened, nonetheless.

So you can see why I can enjoy the humor in that clip. Reality can be a funny thing at times.



But can we possibly hate on something like this???


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They disabled embedding on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tiv9RDIY0ac


I'll do a separate thread on the "SHIELDS AGENDA."




...sooooo somebody.....reach out.....

grab MY moon, will ya?? :D:D:D



thanks for this post doc..opens my mind to lots of new ideas to play with

[MikeyP]

Im gonna have to disagree that it needs music to be dancing. Ill get more into it when im not at work. Again the medium for us is movement. The medium for a painter is paint. He a painter chooses to create a work that is not on a canvas does that make it not painting? If you lock to jazz does that change your locking into jazz dancing?

i'll wait for your response to give mine

[Inventfmc]

Here's the rest of my reply:

It's very easy to say "in my opinion." But in some instances I actually feel an opinion can be wrong (or biased, or have many fallicies).

You guys say that without music it is not dancing.

But then in the same breath, I'm sure you would say that "Art is subjective. If it's art to the creator, then it's art to them, even if I don't think it's art."

Well, that same principle applies to dance. I've seen some incredible works done in silence. Why can't the silence be the music? Or the sounds of the people dancing? Obviously to that dancer or the choreographer, it is art... it is DANCE. So just because you say that it has no music, it is not dance?

What about a work that is done to music, but in the middle of it, for one minute, there is dance movement done to silence? Does the whole work become "Not dance" or just that section?

We dance with our headphones on all the time... other people can't hear what we are dancing to, they just see the movement... So does that mean someone who's watching you bust to your headphones can come up to you and say "you're not dancing... I don't hear any music..." and be right about it?

LOL i kinda hate to bring this up... but it makes me think of keith olberman's rant on the banning of prop 8. He pointed out the idea of "keeping the sanctity of marriage" and how people believe that gays being able to marry would destroy that, although you have people everyday that are marrying for convenience, to hide something, for money and personal gain, which REALLY destroys the sanctity of marriage. I think the same rule applies here... If I decide to create a piece that is set to silence that is wrong and not dancing? But if I suddenly set it to Ying Yang Twins (that "beat the pu$$y up" song), then it's ok and acceptible as dance?

I don't think so.

[Funky Robotnick]

So Invent, are you saying that Mime is dance? Before you said no, but now it kinda sounds like you say it is. Please clarify.

If your answer's still no, then where would you draw the line between dance and not-dance? I'd assume there has to be some sort of rhythm present for dance, whether done to music or not. But even so, many non dance performances have rhythm, for example comedians and comedy (seriously, watch Futurama. You can practically snap your fingers to the jokes). However, I think their rhythm is different, for example a rhythm in music follows a beat, where a rhythm in something like mime may not keep time.

Coincidentally, I was just talking about this with a friend. He pointed out that when Robert Shields does his robot, he often does three small movements followed by a big movement (imagine them all being done at the same speed, the bigger movement being more drawn out and taking longer). This is an example of a rhythm that doesn't have to fall within a beat, and not something that I would consider dance. However, set those same movements within a 4/4 structure, and I would definitely call it a dance (music or not).

[Inventfmc]

Originally I did say mime was not a dance... but the more I argue for the openness to view it as a dance the more I'm starting to think it is!! lol.

However, I'll just reiterate my point:

An art belongs to the main medium through which the art is performed. Miming I would consider acting first, with a secondary emphasis on movement. So maybe it's "Act dancing" haha.

Music = instrument (even electronic)
Painting = paint
Sculpting = non-pliable and pliable materials
dance = movement
acting = acting
mime = acting
etc.

[MikeyP]

love u invent.

Yes, i still think that there has to be music for dance, otherwise its just movement.

as far as your headphones argument, so what? If i have headphones on and i'm dancing to my music and no one else can hear it, yes it is still dancing, because i hear the music and i'm interpriting it. just cause no one else can hear it dosn't mean it isn't.
now you can argue off of that and say "well if i'm dancing to silence i might be dancing to somethign in my head" cool. but that means your still dancing to something. just to the observer you are not dancing. and dance is SELF expression, soooo yeaa screw the observer =] Dance lies within the individual, and we all know that (i hope)

and as far as the yin yang twins, i agree. I dont like em either, but just cause i dont like somethining dosn't mean its not dancing, in my mind perhaps, but not in everyones.

[Inventfmc]

But here's the philosophical question...

Do you hear something in silence?

Can you consider silence a sound?


What if someone is dancing to only the mere sound of their own breath (that the audience can also hear), is it still not dance because there is no music?

(to somewhat get back on topic also... there are street mime's that perform to music... which by your guys' default would make it dance... the silence is supposed to be in their acting, not just the setting.)

[SantaCruzIce]

This is a cool thread with some awesome arguments. I feel like I'm watching a tennis match and keep looking at one side then the other side over and over again. ha.

[Larry Pink]

i feel like i'm stoned reading this argument. but all in all, it is a great debate. i think miming is dope - but unless it's not truly utilizing the music, it fails to be a dance. and it doesn't have to be on beat either, it can still just have the FEELING of what's going on - but it's gotta have music. ESPECIALLY in street dance. Look at all the miming the Lockers did. currahzee

[MikeyP]

silence, by definition is the absense of sound.
so no

sorry Simon and Garfunkle, but i disagree. and cut your hair garfunkle.

the absense of something does not prove the existence of something else. Specious reasoning in its finest.

I love this debate, seriously =]. Now it seems we're getting into the whole Music Vs Birdsong debate, which is a mindbender and i fear debating that topic. PSU Music Theory 212, bad memories.... Defining what is art and what is not is so hard to do, because it lies in the eye of the beholder for the majority of the time.

and just like in locking, the greatest weakness can also be the greatest strength. much like speach in miming.

[Inventfmc]

ok ok haha

ill leave it for now. I think we can all agree...

if a mime wants to call his/herself a dancer... then he/she is a dancer.

innocent until proven guilty. haha

[MikeyP]

works for me.

thanks for everyone discussing their respect for mime.

it breaks my heart that such a great medium is riddiculed so terribly.

[ceech]

i do enjoying this type deep thinking. doclock... see what you brought up ? lol.. but i still love it. we got some serious thinkers here and i'm reading some very intelligent thoughts.

i would agree, dancing still has to be with music. dancing = movement of the body + harmony with the music ( or just sound ).

to answer the question : can someone dance in silence ? according to my definition, the answer is no. so, that means is there another definition of dance ? if you believe someone can dance in silence, then how would you define the word dance ?

is dance just body movement ? I don't believe so. I've heard other dancers argue that any movement is dance. the clicking of the clock, it's movement, and it's dance, and it's art. personally, i don't think so. so the rotation of the earth is dance because it's movement, so you can pretty much argue that everything in the universe is dancing because it has movement.

[Larry Pink]

dang ceech, this is pretty deep! all that meditation during yoga really paid off

[DocLock]

Holy cow.....what have I done?

I'm so glad I didn't bring up EUROTRIP 2

[Jeremiah]

hmmmm...i think this has some relationship to the conversation, or maybe not..either way i thought it is a great definition of popping, and an interesting perspective by my all time FAVE dancer, check it out:)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5nBV3BHqlSs&feature=related

"popping is freedom of expression done to the rhythm of the music"